[Babel-users] Restarting MeshPoint – seeking advice on routing for crisis/disaster scenarios

Sun Dec 21 01:22:22 GMT 2025

I'm sorry, I'm always afraid to reply here.  But I request to understand
the deficiencies of 802.11s, in favor of going with Batman-adv.  In my mind
babel over 802.11s would be an ideal config.  But Juliusz had seemed to
have the opinion if we're going with 802.11s, then leave Babel out of the
picture.

Would you mind sharing your hardware config for this? I've been working on
some emergency radios myself in an ipq-4019 chipset environment.  I've had
it where anyone who just associates with the network automatically gets
WhatsApp services, using coovachilli on an openWRT build. I can get them
meshing on about a 1 to 2 km range.

It would be nice to meet the market, in the absence left by Open-Mesh being
sold to Datto, with a similar open source framework for a public mesh
network system with mapping and payment gateway like they were doing, based
on a bulletproof emergency response radio build.

Thank you for all you do,
s.

On Sun, Dec 21, 2025, 4:08 AM Valent at MeshPoint <valent at meshpointone.com>
wrote:

> Forgot to share the link - https://github.com/mwarning/meshnet-lab/
>
>
> ------ Original Message ------
> From "Valent at MeshPoint" <valent at meshpointone.com>
> To "Juliusz Chroboczek" <jch at irif.fr>
> Cc babel-users at alioth-lists.debian.net
> Date 20.12.2025. 23:35:01
> Subject Re[2]: [Babel-users] Restarting MeshPoint – seeking advice on
> routing for crisis/disaster scenarios
>
> >Hello Juliusz,
> >
> >Good to hear from you again, and thanks for the detailed reply.
> >
> >I agree on cellular changing the landscape a lot. In practice, in
> deployments I have seen and worked with, cellular is often overloaded,
> intentionally restricted, or simply unavailable exactly when ad hoc
> connectivity is needed most. That is why I still look at mesh as a
> complementary tool rather than a replacement for cellular.
> >
> >On jamming and mixed link types, I am fully aligned with your point. From
> a practical networking perspective, this is where layer 3 really shines. If
> links are abstracted properly, the routing protocol should not care whether
> the next hop is WiFi, Ethernet, or something more exotic. In the field,
> mixed setups often survive precisely because not everything fails at the
> same time.
> >
> >Regarding seamless mobility, thanks for pointing me to sroamd. I actually
> was not aware of it before your email. Conceptually, layer 3 mobility makes
> a lot of sense to me, especially from an operational standpoint. In
> community and emergency networks I have worked with, large layer 2 domains
> tend to look good in small tests, but become fragile once you have real
> users, real traffic, and imperfect links.
> >
> >On the large scale behaviour question, I mean this in a very pragmatic
> way. Many community and emergency style networks are sparse, asymmetric,
> and power constrained. Nodes come and go, links flap, and you often end up
> with long chains rather than dense meshes. The challenge is keeping control
> plane traffic bounded and predictable so that routing does not end up
> consuming most of the airtime or CPU as you scale into the hundreds or
> thousands of nodes.
> >
> >To keep this grounded in reality, I have been testing in a lab setup that
> tries to resemble real community networks as closely as possible. I am
> using meshnet lab to spin up large topologies based on real Freifunk
> network graphs, rather than synthetic grids or random meshes. This allows
> comparing behaviour on the same realistic topologies and then sanity
> checking the results on actual hardware in smaller setups. Have you, or
> anyone else on the list, worked with meshnet lab before? I would be
> interested to hear how well it matched real world behaviour in your
> experience.
> >
> >I also wanted to ask one more general question about Babel itself, more
> about process than implementation details. When you first started
> developing Babel, was it driven mainly by theoretical reasoning at the
> beginning, with real world testing coming later, or were simulators, lab
> setups, or live networks involved from early on? Or was it always a mix of
> both. I am asking from an operator perspective, since in my experience many
> issues only show up once you put protocols into messy, real topologies.
> >
> >Best regards,
> >Valent
> >
> >
> >------ Original Message ------
> >From "Juliusz Chroboczek" <jch at irif.fr>
> >To "Valent Turkovic" <valent at meshpointone.com>
> >Cc babel-users at alioth-lists.debian.net
> >Date 18.12.2025. 1:04:43
> >Subject Re: [Babel-users] Restarting MeshPoint – seeking advice on
> routing for crisis/disaster scenarios
> >
> >>Hello, Valent, good to hear from you again.
> >>
> >>>  Between 2015 and 2018 I ran the MeshPoint project – a simple, rugged
> >>>  Wi-Fi hotspot designed to work in the toughest conditions.
> >>
> >>I remember :-)
> >>
> >>>  Unfortunately, financial issues forced me to pause the project after
> 2018
> >>
> >>In addition to the issues you mention, the big change since the early
> >>2000s is the wide availability of cheap cellular connectivity.  Hence,
> the
> >>demand for mesh networks has changed quite a bit.
> >>
> >>>  I know that in active conflict zones Wi-Fi can be jammed
> >>
> >>The nice thing about having a layer 3 routing protocol is that you can
> >>combine technologies: Babel is designed to handle a network that has both
> >>wired and wireless links, and that uses multiple wireless technologies at
> >>the same time (WiFi at various frequencies, UWB, infrared laser, etc.).
> >>In such a network, Babel should be able to find a path consisting of
> >>whichever links are not jammed at a given time.
> >>
> >>Of course, this assumes that the opponent is not able to jam all links
> >>simultaneously.
> >>
> >>>  - BATMAN-adv-style seamless mobility
> >>
> >>I started working on sroamd[1], which implements seamless mobility at
> >>layer 3, but then Covid happened, and I got interested in
> >>videoconferencing.  I guess we could revive it if there's interest.
> >>
> >>[1]: https://github.com/jech/sroamd
> >>
> >>>  - Better large-scale behaviour for hundreds-to-thousands of nodes in
> >>>    sparse or battery-constrained setups
> >>
> >>Could you please clarify?
> >>
> >>-- Juliusz
>
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