[Freedombox-discuss] Freedombox Mesh Network Simulator

Rick C. Hodgin foxmuldrster at yahoo.com
Wed Jun 20 18:29:20 UTC 2012


These are mine:

The mesh network should be able to route packets from any geographic 
location to another, merely by knowing where it (itself) is, where the 
packet came from and where it's going.  There are certain aspects of 
forward-transmissions for packets each FBX would have to maintain for a 
period time in case one or more of the FBXs fell off the mesh and are no 
longer available, which would require re-routing through a 
less-than-optimal route, although given the circumstances of the FBX 
"holes" that now exist in the living, dynamic mesh, perhaps may NOW 
actually be THE optimal route.

I think getting away from IP addresses (except as mechanical means to 
coordinate with FBX devices that indicate they're "over there in the 
direction I want to send stuff"), and going entirely with geographic 
addresses will solve everything.  There is still the issue of geographic 
identity for a roaming target, but I think a lifetime relative to the 
nature of the roaming speed for nearby FBXs would solve that as well.  
We'll see.

I could be wrong.  Probably am.  My hard-headedness and stubbornness 
will mandate that I prove it to myself though, which I may well do this 

Ever see a 42-yr old man eat crow on a mailing list?  Stay tuned... I 
might just do that come Sunday evening! :-) LOL!

Best regards,
Rick C. Hodgin

On 06/20/2012 02:21 PM, Rick wrote:
> Would it be useful to discuss requirements from scratch?
> On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 2:13 PM, John Gilmore <gnu at toad.com 
> <mailto:gnu at toad.com>> wrote:
>     > My wife and I are walking in mall with at least one other person
>     every
>     > 40 feet or so.  We decide to separate and go shopping.  I walk
>     this way,
>     > she walks that way.  Before long we're out of direct WiFi
>     communication
>     > range to each other.  Now, if enough people there in the mall had
>     > WiFi-enabled devices running some mesh software, I'd like to be
>     able to
>     > stay in contact with my wife as she moves about in her random
>     way, and
>     > as they all move about in their random ways.
>     The One Laptop per Child project also wanted to satisfy this goal.
>     They wanted kids all over a village to be able to reach each other and
>     to reach the Internet via a gateway at their school.  They had the
>     advantage of designing and building both the hardware and software.
>     But they failed, partly due to system integration issues.
>     They were using a buggy implementation of 802.11 meshing that preceded
>     802.11s.  But they also used higher level user interface software,
>     which used multicast packets to find and communicate with other nearby
>     laptops.  The mesh software worked poorly with multicast.  Not only
>     did it send multicasts at the slowest speed (1 megabit), which took up
>     a lot of airtime, but the various nodes would repeat the multicasts to
>     make sure that every node had heard them.  This limited the size of
>     the network that they could scale to.  They did not discover this
>     unfortunate interaction until very late in the
>     hardware/software/firmware integration process (when the
>     multicast-based application sharing software started working).
>     Another major problem was that a mesh network is very hard to
>     reproduce.  If it does something unexpected or suboptimal, the
>     developers can't just teleport themselves to the part of the world
>     where that particular physical configuration of radio nodes, physical
>     antennas, software versions, and firmware versions exists.  In many
>     cases they can't even reach into the nodes of that network over the
>     Internet while the problem is happening, to debug it.  Many, many OLPC
>     mesh problems occurred in the field which could not be replicated in
>     the lab, which made them 10x or 100x harder to fix.  This meant that
>     buggy mesh network firmware and software didn't improve at the usual
>     rate (of the rest of their software).
>     The result was that despite a lot of work addressing bugs and
>     performance in the mesh firmware, they never got their automatic mesh
>     network working with more than a handful of XO laptops.  If you put 30
>     laptops in a classroom, they would burn up 100% of the radio bandwidth
>     (and chew up their batteries) merely with overhead packets ("Hi, i'm
>     here."  "Hi you, I'm me; have you heard about Joe and Alice over
>     there?" "In case you want to send a message to Joe, send it via me to
>     Alice; I can hear Alice just fine.").  There was no bandwidth left for
>     the users to actually communicate; connections would time out, nodes
>     would appear and disappear from the mesh, etc.  So OLPC stopped using
>     the mesh and recommended that each classroom install one or more
>     802.11 access points.  Which has worked ok.  They also switched to
>     support ad-hoc 802.11 without meshing, for automatically networking "a
>     few students sitting around under a tree", which also works ok.
>     There ARE some mesh networks that I hear are working on a larger
>     scale, such as B.A.T.M.A.N.  I suspect that the large scale meshes are
>     in largely static networks that are tuned by humans to work well (just
>     as the broader Internet's routing system is tuned by humans to work;
>     it's not automatic).  I do not know if other meshes support multicast
>     (or other portable ways for high level software to find what nodes are
>     on the network), nor whether they work in a network of mobile nodes
>     with limited battery life.  All I can report on is the one project I
>     was involved in (OLPC), in which their mesh implementation failed to
>     accomplish its goals, and was dropped from the next generation
>     hardware and software.
>     This is part of why I recommend using wired connections wherever
>     possible.  For FreedomBox to succeed, it needs to succeed at scale.  A
>     FreedomBox network that can't route packets for more than 500 nodes
>     worldwide wouldn't be worth building.  (Clue: this is why the Internet
>     exists today: it scaled up and kept working, while the proprietary
>     networks that preceded it didn't scale up to worldwide scale.)  In a
>     substantial network, your mesh and dynamic routing protocol could
>     require a few megabits of traffic at all times on each node, just
>     keeping track of everything.  Over a 100-megabit Ethernet that's just
>     2 or 3% of the bandwidth.  But over 802.11, that burns up most of the
>     available bandwidth.  Every connection you move off wireless onto a
>     wire makes more radio bandwidth available for the folks who truly
>     can't run a wire.
>     I have some ideas about how FreedomBox nodes could provide censorship
>     resistant networking via running an overlay IPv6 network using
>     geographically based addressing to simplify the routing problem.  I'll
>     dig those up and repost them in the next few days.  It isn't an
>     automatic mesh, though; it has explicit connections made by humans
>     among friendly nodes.  The part that's automatic is how the packets
>     flow after the humans make those connections.
>            John
>     PS:  If you think a mesh protocol shouldn't use even a megabit/second
>     of continuous overhead, please design and build one that doesn't,
>     and that scales up and keeps working.  It's harder than it looks.
>     _______________________________________________
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> -- 
> /Ramen./

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