[Freedombox-discuss] IRC: Dyne.org at 4pm CET

Philippe Baret philippe.baret at mailbox.org
Sat Jun 4 19:17:21 UTC 2016

> Le 3 juin 2016 à 15:00, Philippe Baret <philippe.baret at mailbox.org> a écrit :
>     Hello,
>     FreedomBox IRC channel is welcoming Dyne.org community active members for an opened discussion today on Friday June 3rd at 4pm CET.

In a nutshell:

FreedomBox and Dyne.org: potential for working together on components (such Plinth) while keeping the outcomes different.

It will be discussed with FreedomBox board about an official participation to Fairsky, a project of portal and observatory on "off-the-cloud" software and hardware. 

Here is the IRC log:

◌ sunilmohan_ Hello!
◌ hellekin hi sunilmohan_
◌ sunilmohan_ hellekin: Hi
◌ phylophyl hellekin jaromil and other dyne.org members could introduce themselves?
◌ jaromil hi :^)
◌ phylophyl i had the pleasure to met jaromil at D-Cent Madrid last week, during a discussion it appears Dyne community had some similar projects
◌ hellekin is a generalist working with free software. Sysadmin, Web, Community, PR, Shell and Ruby. Primarily active with Dyne.org, GNU.org, Hackerspaces.org, Center for Cultivation of Technology. Interested in P2P social networking, funding free software, minimalism, anarchism.
◌ sunilmohan_ is a contributor to the FreedomBox project for the past 2 years. From Hyderabad, India. Generally interested in free software and specifically decentralized/p2p technologies.
◌ jaromil C/C++ coder based in Amsterdam, started or contributed to various upstream F/OSS projects in the past 20yrs. among them Dowse, our new project for IoT awareness within LAN space
◌ fredd fredd is part of dyne.org, interface designer for dowse, artist, amsterdam based

◌ jaromil I've proposed phylophyl we try to ally between freedombox and dowse since we have complementary goals. there are various ways we could actually ally and first and foremost by starting a new "meta-" project; Fairsky, a portal and observatory on "off-the-cloud" software and hardware
◌ phylophyl is a contributor to FreedomBox project for less than a year. Editor, Journalist from Barcelona. Using Debian since early 2015. Interest in open source editing pratices, and "human communications through machines" in general
◌ jvalleroy-w hello all
◌ jvalleroy-w can code python and C, contributing to FreedomBox for ~3 years. I'm in Michigan, USA.
◌ hellekin molt be phylophyl :)
◌ phylophyl :)
◌ sunilmohan_ I do see a lot of complementary goals for both projects. It would be very nice to collobarote on as many parts as possible.
◌ jaromil sunilmohan_: dowse went through an articulated process of "LEAN" development meaning we tested and scratched off a lot of approaches before coming to a more stable one at present
◌ hellekin since day one Dowse was presented as "not freedombox", so yes, the complementarity is kinda built-in.
◌ jaromil now another way we could plug into each other is to have compatibility for freedombox modules in dowse. I had a "module" system in dowse but that is no more now
◌ phylophyl Fairsky: https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/list/fairsky.en.html
◌ sunilmohan_ I have joined that list.
What goals are not part of dowse?
◌ hellekin likes "fairsky", especially because it does not use the wrong word.
◌ hellekin sunilmohan_: achieving peace on Earth? :)
◌ sunilmohan_ Would that include web applications such as ownCloud?
◌ sunilmohan_ :)
How about mesh networking?
◌ hellekin ownCloud is proablby the only occurrence where "cloud" actually makes sense, and it contrasts to "not own cloud", which is respectable IMO, following the FSF's mantra that "there's no cloud, only other people's computers".
◌ jaromil sunilmohan_: we contemplate application-space "mesh" but that's more autodiscovery of services and awareness of open ports on objects online and such
◌ jvalleroy-w fairsky description sounds a bit like https://wiki.debian.org/FreedomBox/LeavingTheCloud
◌ jaromil dowse is "just" a gateway
did not know leavingthecloud
◌ sunilmohan_ hellekin: Could you explain "no freedombox"? What goals of FreedomBox does dowse not try to address?
◌ jaromil sunilmohan_: we don't necessarily want dowse to run services
◌ hellekin sunilmohan_: the social networking part mostly
◌ jaromil I'd rather adopt plinth
◌ hellekin: https://github.com/freedombox/Plinth
◌ sunilmohan_ jaromil: That's good to know. Do you already have a web interface for dowse?
◌ jaromil yes, but its very minimalistic. its written in c and based on kore.io
it just lists all objects found on lan and will soon give an option to switch them ON/OFF the network
◌ sunilmohan_ By the way, Plinth is modular. It is possible to a completely external module (installed by a separate package) be part of Plinth.
◌ jaromil yes that is what interests me of plinth
◌ sunilmohan_ Also many part of Plinth core as also modules meaning if you don't like something, just disabling the module will do.
◌ jaromil dowse collects info about LAN, has a pub/sub mechanism that distributes events to listeners over OSC or websockets or MQTT and lists all objects. events are about DNS queries and about objects joining and leaving
its all about knowing what goes on. it has all characteristics of an accesspoint. but since it runs on RPi3 and such machines we can also fit more, like services, hence freedombox
◌ sunilmohan_ I see.
◌ sunilmohan_ Is there something you would like to know about Plinth interenals that I can talk about now?
◌ phylophyl Dowse https://files.dyne.org/dowse/
◌ jaromil looking at modules in plinth, we'd rather take care of stuff like this https://github.com/seandiggity/Plinth/tree/master/modules/installed/privacy
◌ jaromil which I see is pending. dowse also does dnscrypt-proxy tunneling of DNS and can easily become a transparent proxy (we experimented with tor and i2p)
◌ sunilmohan_: first question is about plinth if that is final. we like to keep latency very low and are afraid of django being to heavy, wonder what is your experience with that
final I mean if you are going to keep plinth around, develop it, maintain it. if there is a rewrite, what are your feelings about it in general
◌ jaromil oh i just realise I was looking at the wrong repo and that is actively developed :)
hellekin ...
◌ sunilmohan_ s'est déconnecté (Ping timeout: 480 seconds)
◌ sunilmohan___ est arrivé
◌ sunilmohan___ is experiencing a power cut, apologizes.
◌ jaromil nevermind :)
◌ fredd sounds like sicily...
◌ sunilmohan___ Last message I saw was "looking at modules in plinth, we'd rather take care of stuff like this https://github.com/seandiggity/Plinth/tree/master/modules/installed/privacy"
That particular code in long gone.
Plinth underwent almost complete remake over past couple of years.
◌ jaromil yes I quickly realized was looking at wrong repo
◌ sunilmohan___ The current application uses Django.
◌ jaromil one thing I don't understand clearly is where the configuration for each module is, I mean the daemons are spawned with a config file which is generated, I guess? or is /etc/defaults what plinth is tweaking?
◌sunilmohan___ Follows strict coding guidelines, is internationalized.
◌ jaromil yes the internationalisation is very very good to have :)
◌ sunilmohan___ Most of that happens in action scripts.
◌ jaromil however this is a debate for the more technical side of things, for the campaigning and editorial side lets reserve some time later to discuss fairsky
◌ sunilmohan___ We are also integrated into online translations frameworks https://hosted.weblate.org/projects/freedombox/plinth/ https://www.transifex.com/freedombox/

◌ phylophyl in a nutshell, i understand that Dowse is a potential option for a FreedomBox feature?
◌ jaromil i doubt, dowse is not really a service
◌ sunilmohan___ There is potential for working together on components (such Plinth) while keeping the outcomes different.
◌ jaromil it mostly focuses on ISO/OSI layers 2 and 3, does firewalling etc.
◌ sunilmohan___ privoxy, hardware support, software security upgrades, upstream etc. are some areas I think are other potential areas.
◌ phylophyl interface design may be also
◌ jaromil yes we are talking with fredd here on-site about that
we'll try to figure out if plinth is a point of contact
◌ hellekin phylophyl: Dowse and Freedombox have a very different approach, both technical and in scope, and I don't see how one could become a feature of the other.
◌ sunilmohan___ FreedomBox also has many router functions such as openvpn and pppoe (apart from firewall with firewalld)
◌ jaromil do you have any way to announce freedombox active services?
◌ sunilmohan___ Please let us know if there any thing you need from us to make that evaluation.
◌ jaromil this is an important thing for me to know. are you using something like zeroconf, bonjour, anything replying to a broadcast package
◌ sunilmohan___ Also we shall be open to changes that will enable us to collaborate.
◌ jaromil: We have avahi-daemon annoucing the services but is rudiementary currently.
◌ jaromil avahi :/
you plan to substitute that or enhance it?
◌ sunilmohan___ Yes.
Currently not on the priority list though.
◌ hellekin phylophyl: that said, maintaining joint focus by the way of Fairsky may help reach a better complementarity over time.
◌ phylophyl hellekin, FreedomBox provides some tools for communiations administrators as far as i understand it :) isn't dowse the same focusing on Lan?
◌ hellekin phylophyl: communicationsplease define administrators
◌ hellekin phylophyl: please define communications administrators
◌ phylophyl communications administrators, as setup, run and offers some tool to communicate
◌ FreedomBox is made to publish, chat, talk, files
◌ hellekin yes, Dowse is made to be aware of what's going on on your LAN
◌ phylophyl Dowse is for a control of software communications
◌ fredd dowse is made to be aware what is doing what on our lan from userspace
◌ jaromil yes, awareness 1st of all, control if possible and as simple as on/off
◌ hellekin well, communication between machines and communication between humans are quite orthogonal.
◌ jaromil in awareness is included service discovery
◌ phylophyl both are trying to more or less control datamining
◌ jaromil so would be nice for dowse to detect and signal the presence of freedombox
◌ fredd dowse does _not_ log by default :)

◌ jaromil i think we both have the privacy aspect well in mind and share it, hence fairsky
lets talk about fairsky?
◌ phylophyl sure
◌ sunilmohan___ Sure
◌ hellekin A fair sky is a cloudless sky, right?
◌ phylophyl and as a metaphore, understanding vs fogginess
◌ jaromil yes
its a way in english to define a cloud free sky
◌ phylophyl Fairsky sounds interesting in terms of visibility similar projects but also to define what we are doing and for who
[visibility for]
◌ jaromil yep. it would be a larger platform for all projects who are about running services at home, both hardware and software
so its a meta project also to give a sort of quality stamp and advocate decentralization and home hosting
list alternatives, help orientate people on their needs, make it ultimately clear that what most software do when they phone home is spyware
◌ sunilmohan____ est arrivé
◌ hellekin I see it as a specific anti-cloud campaign platform that could bring harmony among the various similar projects that have been struggle for decentralization and distribution.
The rationale is that the cloud is one specific aspect of a vast context
◌ hellekin and there are already a number of aligned projects (Freedombox, YNH, GNUnet, SocialSwarm, Prism-Break, etc.) that could feel concerned by a common discourse that can be developed under the Fairsky umbrella
◌ sunilmohan___ s'est déconnecté (Ping timeout: 480 seconds)
◌ hellekin without having to disengage from their own specific path
◌ fredd under a fairsky you don?t need umbrellas ;)
◌ phylophyl :)
◌ sunilmohan____ :)
◌ phylophyl you need a trampoline
◌ sunilmohan____ hellekin: You are right. Even when each project is distinguished by specific goals and technologies, the overall vision for such projects is the same.
There is a lot such an alliance can do, persuade the larger community build and maintian software with these objectives.
◌ phylophyl what is interesting is that you are pretty advanced in terms of connexions with actors that can talk
we have a very "big mouth", Eden, but only one
◌ hellekin If we can articulate a discourse, I'm sure Eben Moglen will be happy to make it fly.
◌ jaromil we can work on having a public platform and perhaps aim at a on-site gathering of sorts within a year
◌ sunilmohan____ That sounds good.
◌ jaromil right now on the fairsky mailinglist we have been silent, people we have met in berlin at transmediale's off-the-cloud zone are subscribed
◌ phylophyl if you see Fairsky as a platform to unite, build concepts and have user feedback to adapt to it, it is very interesting
◌ jaromil so we can pick up from there and keep including not just techies, but also artists (key to having more points of view at front)
◌ phylophyl yes
◌ sunilmohan____ yes
◌ jaromil as well inform our own projects. the strenght should be that of a solid community and some process in place to certify that sw/hw is cloud free
◌ hellekin can we have a content filter on Fairsky that replaces "cloud" with "The Invisible Hand"?
◌ jaromil with dowse we have a lab setup for "digital dissection" which allows us to isolate software and monitor its behaviour, if it phones home
last time we used it with a firefox on the LAN we found out firefox opens a connection to mozilla's servers even every time a new tab is opened(!?)
◌ sunilmohan____ Interesting.
◌ jaromil we may want to have more people challenging this sort of dissection and reporting and make a list of what is really off-the-cloud
◌ sunilmohan____ I like the idea of cloud-free certfication :)
◌ jaromil so well you get the picture. first step now I guess is gather participation
◌ sunilmohan____ Yeah.
◌ jaromil can the freedombox foundation be officially in? I guess you should ask the board
we should start with a range of good and well-known actors already in
then prepare a small press release for the "fairsky coalition" perhaps that's a good name for it
◌ sunilmohan____ jaromil: I can discuss with freedombox foundation.
◌ hellekin I propose we work on a short declaration of intention and send an invitation to various projects.
◌ jaromil and a small site. mailinglist is up, gather participations, draft a list of projects, plan an on-site gathering (we can also host that on our facilities in amsterdam) just sketching a roadmap now but that can change
◌ sunilmohan____ That roadmap is good.
◌jaromil ok :) so we look forward to your communication on the mailinglist perhaps
I will write a short report of our conversation
is there a web archive of this chat?
◌ sunilmohan____ One of us will certainly have the full log.
◌ jaromil I do just wondering if I can point to others on the list
◌ phylophyl there will be a report on the box mailing list
would make sense imo to point to Faisky, Fairsky would point to others ?
◌ jaromil ok! point to others?
fairsky.org right now is the mailman interface, which is fine until we structure a bit more and perhaps find more partners
◌ sunilmohan____ We can take things further on the list. Do we break for now?
◌ phylophyl sure
◌ i guess we can have on FreedomBox: a report on the mailing list, a specific page gathering fairsky potential projects (leaving the could page alike)
◌ jaromil ok! fairsky will be fun :^) many thanks and happy hacking!!
◌ sunilmohan____ jaromil: hellekin: fredd: Thank you for coming and the discussion.

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